The Shift: Voices of Prevention — A podcast by Prevent Child Abuse America
How do we create a future where every family is safe, supported, and filled with hope? The Shift explores bold, upstream solutions to the public health challenges facing children and families today.
Hosted by Prevent Child Abuse America, each episode features transformative conversations with experts, changemakers, and people with lived experience. Together, we dive into prevention strategies, policy breakthroughs, and the systemic shifts that have the power to change lives.
Part of PCA America’s movement to make family well-being the new normal, The Shift amplifies the voices and ideas shaping a brighter, more hopeful future for all families.
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The Shift: Voices of Prevention — A podcast by Prevent Child Abuse America
Technology, Innovation & Child Welfare Systems Ep.3 Jennifer Jones and Takkeem Morgan | CAP Month 2024
Join us for the third and final installment of our conversation series, hosted by our Chief Strategy Officer, Jennifer Jones. We’re wrapping up with a crucial discussion on Technology and Child Welfare, featuring Takkeem Morgan, Executive Director of Mosaic Parent Hub.
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Good morning. Hello. My name is Jennifer Jones, and I'm the Chief Strategy Officer at Prevent Child Abuse America. I'm extremely excited to have Takeem Morgan here with me today. I met Takeem uh several years ago when we were both working on the Thriving Family Safer Children initiative. And I think we quickly found out that we are incredibly passionate about uh prevention in particular. So Takeem is the founder and executive director of Mosaic Parent Hub. He's a data-driven marketing expert who has been recruited by the national nonprofit Foster America to serve as a strategic marketing consultant for the Indiana Department of Child Services. In his role, he's using his personal experiences as a former foster youth, along with his expertise, to develop new and effective strategies for retaining and recruiting foster parents. He's got a passion for building partnerships across the private sector to address uh issues impacting marsh marginalized communities. And he's really making a significant impact on the foster care and child welfare systems. Most recently, Takeem has joined the board of directors for Foster America. And you can learn more about Takeem's work by visiting his website at www.takeemorgan.com. So thank you, Takeem, for joining us today, spending time with me. I I love, I always love our conversations. And today we get to have a conversation about some of the amazing work that you're doing, some of the challenges that we're facing in terms of technology and innovation, but just really excited to dive in. But before we jump into our discussion, just want to see if there's anything you want to start off by sharing or reflecting on before we kind of dig in.
SPEAKER_03:Well, so as you said, Jennifer, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. You know, I always walk away feeling a little bit uh more informed, a little bit more connected, a little bit more strategic. You know, you're an awesome strategic thinker. And uh so yeah, it's always a pleasure in terms of you know, just excitement. I, you know, I'm very excited when I look out at the macro trends that are taking place in human services and child welfare in general. It's there's a lot of excitement because I can really see that there seems to be a mental model shift. And so, you know, we can talk about it in detail as we as we go through this. But that's one of the things that's really exciting me is that I think there is change that's happening at a level that allows for significant systemic change as we go forward. So that's exciting.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. And um, you may know, Takeem, and and we'll uh talk a little bit about this uh in our conversation, is that Prevent Child Abuse, uh Prevent Child Abuse America launched our theory of change last August into a lot of buzz and excitement. And one of our key uh strategies, but also one of the key leverage points uh we believe we need to engage in is this idea around shifting mindsets and transforming the narrative. And so as you talk about sort of mental models, right, that's so important if we're actually going to create systemic meaningful change. And so I'm uh I'm excited to uh to hear that that's a trend that you're seeing. I think it's so important. Um we've seen it with a lot of other movements in our in our in our uh history, um, that that mindset shift uh is really when you sort of hit the tipping point and are able to make true meaningful change. So we can certainly dig into that more. Takeem, you and I both have a passion for innovation and creativity. I think that's the beauty uh of our of our sector, the ability to really think about social issues and root causes and systemic issues, and then use our uh strategic thinking about, you know, how can we be innovative and creative in addressing those complex issues that families are facing today. And so we really have the opportunity to elevate this idea of innovation in the social services sector. You've been talking about it in your work, and we've been talking about it in spaces like Thriving Families. So just would really love to hear from you, Takeem, about your perspective around innovation in prevention in particular, but certainly feel free to share uh about innovation in other spaces as well.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so I I when I think about innovation in human services and social services, I think what is compelling is the acknowledgement that the system as constructed is not designed to address the problems and the challenges that we are facing, that the system was designed to address uh a perceived problem that is not the one that we're actually facing. And so because we have a scenario where a system is in place and operating and designed for a different set of problems, then we have to quickly both identify the actual problems that that make sense to solve and that we really want to solve, and that we can get outcomes, positive outcomes on, um, and the the ways, the solutions uh uh for addressing those problems. We have to do those things at the same time. And I think when you have a situation like that, then that's when innovation becomes uh uh very valuable, right? Because you have to do things differently and you have to do them quickly. And you essentially have to try and fail fast in order to come up with solutions that would allow us to move forward on the challenges that we know we're actually facing, not the ones we thought we were facing. And I think if you know, to be more specific, you know, I think the child welfare and much of human services, uh, some of it was designed um for exceptions, right? We we thought that perhaps we have exceptional parents that aren't, you know, loving their children and aren't you know stepping up to the plate. Perhaps we have exceptional communities that you know that have a problem here or there. Uh, but what we're finding is it we're not dealing with exceptions, we're dealing with systemic challenges and we need systemic solutions. And the ones that are in place uh don't fit the bill. And so we need to innovate. And and that's what's exciting. Rapid change and new sets of problems require uh innovation mindset.
SPEAKER_01:I love that. And um uh as I as I was talking about our theory of change earlier, our whole approach was this was around adaptive strategy, right? It was an adaptive strategy process, which is the idea that we need to be flexible, we need to be nimble, we need we need to be able to respond to the ever-evolving world around us. And I think you uh you just alluded to that with this idea around rapid, you know, rapid feedback, rapid cycle, rapid testing, right? That these these systems are complex and complicated. And we can't create something that we wait, you know, five, 10 years. We can't do like we did in the old in in the in the past, where we you know create these strategies, we wait for RCTs, random control trials, and five, 10 years down the road we decide it doesn't work or it's shows that it doesn't work. We just don't have that luxury anymore, right? We need to be innovative, we need to be creative, we need to be adaptable. I also love how you said around you know, systems, these systems weren't designed, right? Um, or they were designed to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_03:The challenges that we face, right? That's exactly right.
SPEAKER_01:That's exactly right. And so the child welfare system in particular, right, was was designed to keep kids safe, right, from physical abuse in particular, right? And we know the history uh around the orphan trains and all the things that led up to our current uh child welfare system. Um, but they weren't designed to address, it wasn't designed to address things like poverty, right? Um, or prevention and this idea now that we know, or not idea, but we know that, you know, 60, anywhere between 60, 70% or more of the kids coming into the child welfare system are due to neglect, right? Are due to issues related to poverty. And so how do we, how do we now change, right? How do we now address the fact that poverty and racism and the things that we know are now resulting in the current child welfare system or contributing, right, to the current uh child welfare system and the kids and families that are coming to the attention of that system? We now have to change, right? We have to think differently and we have to be innovative and creative. Love that. I love uh I love how you're thinking about that and and and why and the systemic challenges that need systemic solutions, right? Um I I love that. I I I want to talk a little bit about technology, right? And you uh, you know, in your bio, you say you're a data-driven marketing expert. You and I have had conversations about technology, and we see that, right? We see the advances and enhancements of technology playing out in our daily lives. We saw it during the pandemic in particular, where we had to rely on technology uh in different ways.
SPEAKER_03:Um, and we had to use many things, yep.
SPEAKER_01:Right, and to get resources and supports and communications to families. So, how else? I know you're really thinking about this, and I love that. I mean, you talk about innovation, right? You're really thinking about how we can be more innovative when it comes to technology. So uh tell me a little bit about how else are you seeing families use and rely upon technology today?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, so I think that um at a very um basic level, we we realize that families are nuanced, right? There's families in general are very nuanced. Each family has a different configuration of challenges that they're facing. And so whenever we uh uh commit to actually uh serving those families and uh identifying and trying to meet those family needs, we uh inevitably have to bring a myriad of resources to the table for those those families. And you know, just by virtue of the world that we in, the best way to do that is usually through some type of technology, some type of you know, intermediary that allows for multiple resources to intersect. Um, and if and if nothing else, we're looking to understand to be able to track and measure you know the impact of those uh resources. And so it becomes a it becomes easier to do that at scale when we leverage in um technology. So you say what what types of technology? I think that when you look, apps are huge, right? So um we have you you all have uh the the Healthy Families Initiative. One of the things I noticed as I was doing research here in the in the state is that uh there is an app that at least the service providers use to manage those engagements, right? There's an app that says how many mothers, how many young mothers are in the program, how many are being served, what their level of progress is. So, you know, that that's you know a prime example. This is a young mother, right, trying to be prepared for her future. And we're saying, look, if you're if you don't understand how to manage some of some of the challenges using technology, then you're probably not going to be very prepared for the future that we see on the horizon. And so we right from the from the beginning, we say, look, let's let's leverage uh the technology. Um find help is a very popular uh tool, right? Where you know if you just look at the the approach and the name, it's it's very generic. It's saying, listen, you need a lot of different when you need help, you need a lot of different resources. How about we, you know, aggregate those resources in an easy to navigate space that's digital, and then we can communicate with you about uh whether it meets your needs or not and be able to continuously improve. Um you know, uh there are professionals with lived experience all across the sector that are coming up with um technical solutions uh to challenges that are out there. And the and the truth of the matter is not every solution requires technology, not at all. The challenge that we have in child welfare, though, is that we generally are technology adverse. We usually like to you know be slow uh uh to adopt technology. And and here's the thing when you're dealing uh as some people have called the surveillance, when you're trying to find, seek out, and you know, identify bad actors, and that's that's uh basically a one-to-many. So it's one state, you know, one agency that's going out and and and trying to do these, uh, you know, do this, um, take this view of of families. So that's one way to solve a problem. But if you shift and you say, what do you need, and you allow families to opt in, well then now you have to have the capability to serve them in a different way, right? Because the service on the on the surveillance side is from you going out and deciding who to serve and when. But if you actually look out there and you see what the challenges are, poverty, right? We in particular, and if poverty is being conflated, you know, with neglect, then well, maybe you need to allow parents to opt in. Maybe you need to allow families to opt in. And when you allow them to opt in, you're gonna need to be able to manage, you know, uh that information flow and that engagement differently, usually probably requiring some type of technology. Uh, at least you're going to be a lot more efficient if you're able to leverage technology. And and here's the other thing I I'm speaking a lot about technology, but when you talk about innovation, it's not just technology, sometimes it's process, right? So the so the shift from a uh me to you to you to us uh model that shift um from push to pull, maybe, is can be an innovation. Like the way that we're gonna meet needs. I know um you you're probably aware there was an initiative recently launched to help families, and it's all about you know, families saying what they need and responding to those needs.
SPEAKER_01:So which seems so simple, yet we don't we don't do that often enough, right? Um listen to what families need or or or want or or say. Um so I go ahead. You were gonna say something.
SPEAKER_03:And I was gonna say that's exactly so, you know, my my career started in the private sector, right? So I I you know I um um completed my master's and I went into you know corporate strategic marketing, and uh uh you know, I operated on the technology side of things, using on the business technology side of things. And the interesting thing over there, just as a marketing expert, you know, our uh you know, golden rule is to go to the customer and ask, you know, how's it going? What do you need? How's what we made working for you? What changes would you like? You know, and and we we know that, you know, we call it consumer preferences. It's it's the it's the rule that consumer preferences change and they change often. And so you always have to be in touch with the with the consumer to know, you know, and I'm talking obviously in the private sector side, but to know how they're feeling and how they're changing what they need as they become more educated, as as their needs get um become more sophisticated. Um, so it it when I made the transition into the public sector, it was surprising to me that there was not a mechanism for feedback loop, that there was not a mechanism to constantly engage with the end user and allow the end user to help you uh co-design, you know, the solution ultimately, because we know that the best technologies, Google, Apple, you know, uh Amazon, all these, the best ones have really close relationships with their end users and they're constantly improving and perfecting um that service or that product. And I think, you know, we're obviously we're the public sector, but when we talk about process, right, and we talk about systems, um, this is something that we could learn, right? Is that constant feedback, a system for constant feedback and continuous improvement and make that uh you know um just as high a priority, right? Because the because the reason why they use it in the private sector is because it delivers excellence. And obviously, if you deliver excellence, you can deliver profits, right? But in the in the public sector, if you deliver excellence, you get outcomes, right? You get the outcomes that you want consistently and reliably, right?
SPEAKER_01:Which is well, and it's it's you know, it's this idea that you know, how ludicrous would it be to go out to market with a brand new product, like an iPhone, for example, or you know, Google. Uh, I actually participated in a Google uh research study, right? Where you I went into their offices and they said, How do you feel about this? I think it was an app actually about travel. Um, but it's that idea that you wouldn't go out to market without actually testing it first uh with your users, with your end users. And we don't embrace that at all, right? I mean, we're constantly in our in our sector developing strategies and solutions and programs and interventions without ever talking to people. Um, and then we wonder why it doesn't work when we go out and launch it, right? And so it's so, I think that's so critical. Um, and how do we bake that in to who we are and you know, to the into the DNA of our organization so that we're it's just part of who we are and what we do, just like it is for Google or Apple or um uh yeah, I I I I love that. I think we need to do more of it. We need to figure out how to do it better. Um you brought up two things that I want to just respond to. One is uh that we're technology averse. And, you know, I worked in state government, you're doing that right now with your consulting. Um, and I always had this, you know, I guess this perception or imagination that state government, right, government should be leading the way in terms of technology, right? Um they have the resources, they have the uh the people, the experts, right? You have all the knowledge, right? And the need. And then and the need and the need for sure. And so I always thought that we sh we would see like, you know, technology coming out of government that was far more advanced than what sort of what we see uh in our in our own uh individual lives, but that's not the case, right? It's like you go into these governments or organizations and the technology is, you know, 20 years old in some cases, right? And so I think how do we how do we get better, right, about using technology in a way, how do we stay innovative? How do we stay in front of the trends, right? Um, in terms of technology. Um you also mentioned apps, and I think it's it's interesting because you never really think about how much you rely on apps, right, during your day, during your your your uh every day. I I have my travel app, I have my weather app, I have Shazam when I'm listening to music and I want to know the song, right? Um, I do headspace uh for meditation. I know you do you do meditation as well, and I want to hopefully get to that. But it's it's so how how do we it becomes it, it has become part of our everyday life. And so how do we use it to our advantage? Um, or as we're designing solutions that were incorporating some of this thinking, um cutting edge thinking, right? Um, in terms of uh technology and solutions uh for families. Um, but we know there are concerns, right? There are definitely some concerns, there are some challenges about relying on technology um to do our work. Uh and so I wanna I want to ask you that. What are what are some of the concerns or challenges you see? Um, how do we ethically resolve those issues, right? Um and we're gonna get to AI here in a minute, but I think AI brings some of those ethical challenges out uh in the forefront. But talk to me a little bit about the concerns or challenges that you're seeing around technology and our work and and how do we kind of think about ethically resolving those?
SPEAKER_03:Well, I think at the top is uh, you know, privacy and bias are are right, you know, way up there at the top of the concerns. Um, because you know, uh we we are in such a data-rich uh time period and environment that you can almost use data to paint really any picture to get uh you know a clear um view of things that maybe others don't want you to have a view of, right? Like that's that's a real concern that if you have too much data in you know about me and around me, then now all of a sudden I can't uh be safe. You know, I I can't be uh a private person. I have to be, you know, uh a public person, which means that I have to be subject to all the facts as well as the falsehoods or the perceptions, right? Uh now everyone can kind of paint perceptions on me, and that could cause problems. When I say me, that's me as an individual, me as a community, right? Um, me as a stereotype, you know, because we still have those dynamics that are at play too. So that the um privacy is an issue, bias is an issue, right? Because um, because of the historical exclusion of you know, various uh people, various uh communities and various groups, if they're not included in data and they're not included in technology and technology becomes the status quo, then perhaps the status quo is the exclusion of their ideas, thoughts, cultures, um, you know, uh needs. And so those are very much flying high uh when we talk about adoption. And often because government usually has challenges when it comes down to this equity question and this service question, that they're like, we don't need another thing that uh, you know, uh can cause us problems. And so that's where you see some of the um, you know, you see some of the opportunities with technology and innovation bumping right up against the cultural norms within uh the space, within the you know, the um child welfare and human service government space. Um and so those are the things that we'll have to just be very mindful of and and monitor. I know you said we're gonna talk about technology a little bit. At some point, the opportunity uh outweighs the risk, right? The risk of, hey, is this just another thing that's gonna make us more biased? Well, is there an opportunity? I know I wrote a paper um a little while ago about what if you had folks who who have the need for the technology involved in the design and development and continuous improvement, continuous evaluation, and you just made that a norm. So now you're giving them the power of this resource. It's almost like, you know, uh having a safe way to, you know, uh uh pipe the electricity into the house, right? As opposed to saying, no, you gotta come, you know, we got to ration it out, you got to come down to the government to get access to the things you need electricity for, like refrigerators and microwaves. No, they say, you know what, we'll figure out a safe way to give you access to this power. You know what I mean? Uh, and I think it's the same here. And that's you know, electricity obviously is dangerous, right? You put electricity in the house, people can burn down. I mean, it happens all the time, but the uh benefits outweigh the risk. And so we pipe that electricity down to the house. And I think it's the same with some of the new emerging technologies, especially AI, I think it is really that powerful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I love that, I love that example because I think in order for us to get ahead, as we do in our world, in our society, right? We talked about innovation, you have to think about the risk, but you have to also think about the opportunity. And if we didn't think about the opportunity in some of the things that we've created, like electricity, we would we wouldn't have the luxury of being able to turn on the lights in our house, right? Um, and so I think that's a really important point. I think oftentimes, at least in our sector, I'm sure other sectors as well, but I think in our sector, we tend to be more risk adverse. Um, and we tend to, you know, spend a little bit uh more time, and rightfully so in some cases, right? But how do we, you know, how do we get at that, right? How do we think about the opportunity? I also love the point that you said about government has challenges with equity. I think that's a a nice way of saying it, right? Um, but uh I think that in in all of the things that we talk about related to our work and child welfare and technology, it's equity is a huge part of what we need to think about, um, what we need to uh to make sure we're, you know, is at the top of our mind, right? That we're always viewing this through, in particular, a race equity lens. Um, and so uh I love that that you brought it up. One one thing I also want to add before we go to AI, because I I definitely want to go to AI next. Um the social, social media, right? We didn't have that, or at least I didn't, I'm I'm a little older than you, Takeim, but I didn't have that when I was, you know, in college or a kid, right? And, you know, sometimes very grateful uh for that. But, you know, I have a lot of um family members that have kids and they're not, you know, they're like no, you know, no posting of my child on social media, they don't show the faces, you know, all of those sorts of things. And for me, I'm like, oh, well, you know, like it would be great to see, you know, a, you know, or be able to share a picture of my, you know, niece or nephew or whatever. But it's a real issue uh that that you know, I think parents today have to be concerned about with social media um and how you can actually kind of steal, you know, uh a child's photo and voice and and use it for for for bad. So I think there are some of those uh risks as well that parents have to be cons, you know, sort of concerned with and um uh and think about. So would love for you to address that at any point, but let's let's let's go to AI for a minute. And I think that the other thing that I was gonna say, I'll say a word about yeah, I'll say a word about that.
SPEAKER_03:I think so. I think the um danger is real and it's been proven there's there's been several stories that have been written on you know some of the awful things that could happen when people kind of play with this new technology. But I think um a lot of this concern is concern uh that takes place at the beginning of any new technology when people are experimenting with it. I think that it's great for it to come out now and for us to you know raise those concerns because then we can you know develop solutions and develop protocol and rules. Now, you know, we know people will break rules no matter what, you know, you can have all the best rules you know in the in the world, but some people are still gonna break them. So the fact that people are breaking the rules or doing nefarious things is not uh, you know, I don't think it's enough to say let's run away from this thing, but I think it does tell us, hey, here's here's the things you want to be aware of, and here's how you want to design you know uh solutions so that we prevent and don't allow for this type of behavior, you know, or prevent it as much as possible. You know, I think that that's the thing about that. But I think once, you know, the truth is once you start to show some of the actual value of some of these tools, then I think you're gonna see people using it for the thing that's gonna get them the most value and not, you know, some of the I mean, you know, you have one or two people doing this, but most people probably end up using it for. know to benefit themselves to increase their quality of life, you know, if you if you uh make it such.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, I I think that's right. I mean, I think you always have the people that are going to use, there's always going to be people that are going to use it for, you know, for bad, right? Um and for and and not for good. But I think again, your point about opportunity outweigh the risk. And we got to think about that and use it uh um in that way. Um so I want to talk a little bit about AI. And you you've been writing about this, you've been doing work around AI. Um again, love your innovative spirit and thinking about how we can use this in better ways for our work. And so tell me a little bit about what you're thinking about, what your perspective is on the impact of AI and how we can use it to better support families. And uh I know you've you've done some of this in your thinking and in your work. And so would love for you to share that with us.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah I think I think the thing that thank you I think the thing that makes AI uh so exciting is the way that it intersects with some of the macro trends that we see in human services and child welfare in particular. Just from a a macro standpoint I think you see a shift from as I said surveillance and monitoring to allowing families to opt in to services and taking more of a uh service posture of a customer service posture where we want to make access easy we want to make uh prevention the rule that we're not waiting to crisis in order to help because we know at crisis it's most expensive usually right so if we're really going to do this and do this uh economically efficient then we're really gonna try to leverage all the tools that we can to lower the cost and really prevent you know crisis from from um taking place. And so I think when you look at uh the capabilities of AI and its rapid pace of improvement and the myriad of use cases for for its uh strengths the applicability for its strengths then it just kind of coincides with the change perfectly and what I mean is that uh when you shift from a surveillance you know or monitoring model to more of a customer service model you inevitably have to be able to uh connect with assess and be able to reach more people at one time right and so the language models one of the obvious and just sort of uh you know immediate benefits is that it's processing large amounts of information in relatively short periods of time so just that kind of high level basic functionality means that okay so we could potentially understand the feedback of 5,000 families in their nuanced experience of a solution uh in a way that we couldn't before right that we can query a one model one system on 5,000 different experiences and if we wanted to we could say list each one of them and it would have the capability of listing 5,000 you know or we can say aggregate them or you know um and uh I think that capability just opens up a world of possibilities um you know and I think we're kind of definitely just scratching a surface of understanding okay how does that allow us to scale effective solutions you know yeah I think it's like with any you know with any new technology it's like understanding the breath like it's kind of crazy right that you can you know I use AI um on occasion you know and it brings up everything right it just like brings up everything you ever wanted to know. I mean it writes papers for you right it's like the capacity is is endless and tremendous right and I mean let me just say something about so that writing paper thing right really the the model that we see that's public the only and I'm I'm probably underselling it a little bit but the the main thing that you see taking place yeah is the model being able to effectively manipulate the English language down to the letter right it understands how each letter combination occurs I mean it literally so the the model that we see out here is doesn't think at all it only guess it literally is like a mathematical model right and if you think about 26 letters in the alphabet right there's a limited number of words you can make up words that sound phonetically correct but there's a limited number of words right what if you can make a machine that could tell you every combination of those 26 letters and those limited number of words such that if you started a sentence it could give you the probability of the the complete sentence the variation of complete sentences right if you started it right and it and it's a calculation machine and that's all you're seeing right there. But that same calculation machine and that's capability you can put things like statistical information about the effectiveness of uh you know a universal basic income program and query it the same way and it and and that's even more limited is a limited number of outcomes that have have taken place within this UBI experiment. But now you can query that full data set in lightning speed you know if if you were to run your assessment through this AI right through this language model. You know so you and and now you know there's challenges right because it's new right but you can just think about what that power could represent like how quickly you can begin to make decisions and adjust once you know that you can rely on the the uh a calculation the assessment right yeah after you get past that hurdle you're like whoa we can do amazing things here yeah and I I think this is where and I want to get to this in a second I think this is where equity comes in right um uh but but uh let me ask you this do you think that there might ever be a moment in time where we would use ai for making case decisions in child welfare you know I think that when you say making case decisions right so what if needs never never became a case like what if needs never reached the point of case of a case right now right they may they may need to right but here's the thing I my interest in ai is way upstream and so that's why I give you that counter I don't think that it's necessary for us to use the best technology we have to make case decisions I think case decisions I mean they're you know when we look at them on the whole they're just fraught with problems the you know uh uh uh primary assumptions often are off you know you know what I'm saying yeah um because it's a human it's a human making a a decision a judgment right uh about a particular family based on your lens in this world of which equity is is is is is a big part of that but I love that you're like I don't even want to think about that I want to think about you know I only want to think about the prevention space but it's it's an interesting question right it's an interesting question like today in today's child welfare world we still have a child welfare system right we haven't gotten rid of it we haven't transformed it we haven't it's still here and it's curious it's curious like it would there ever come a time or are there folks thinking about well we could actually use this technology to decide whether or not a family even comes into the child welfare system so I think there's some interesting well what I will say is that it has been used that way. So the predictive you know Allegheny County had a had a famous case predictive analytics you know where they yeah where they used uh predictive analytics which you know in some of it is uh very close to the functionality at least the you know kind of uh calculation functionality of a of the new ai models the new large large language models um but you know uh I just think that we're not there where we want any robot making intimate decisions for us you know what I mean I don't I don't I don't think we're we're there now you know robots can help us get what we need we would love that you know carry more stuff for us like absolutely you know what I mean fix things you know what I mean uh give you know give forewarnings about things look around corners for us like that's all great but you know deciding whether or not to uh take my liberty or you know take my child I don't I I don't think that that's what we're asking for our robots to do you know what I'm you know what I'm saying yeah and I think those are part of the things that those are part of the conversations that are being had out there right it's like what are the consequences um the negative consequences of of some of this technology right it's like here in I live in Madison as you know and on campus they have those little robots that uh are driving around campus all the time and it's crazy when you drive down campus and there's these little things and in those little things are food that people order and it gets picked up at the restaurant and it drives to the dorm or the, you know, and it's like this little robot, right?
SPEAKER_01:Those are the kind of things I think, you know, that you're like that's a great idea, right? It's like I can order food and this little robot delivers it to my door. But you know those are the kind of technology things I think that you know that we all appreciate and we know and this is what I wanted to ask you next is that we have to be aware of some of these things, right? We have to be aware of some of the consequences. We have to be aware of the equity issues.
SPEAKER_03:So so tell me a little bit or talk to me a little bit about what are some of the challenges that you're seeing barriers concerns that you're hearing about or seeing when when we think about AI Yeah I think um you know one of the biggest challenges and biggest barriers is the is the data that's used to train the large language models right um uh you know when we talk about equity you know um we we we know that that there was not an um there was not an eye towards equity in the initial training of the models and we've done extensive research I work with Chapin Hall's AI working group and we do a lot of review of current research on the use of AI and like I said the the issue of bias and equity are way up because they've been tested they've tested these models and they've done things like facial recognition and they struggle to recognize minority faces right so they got this you know amazing technologists like look we can recognize your face we can associate things but not if you're of you know not if you're too dark right not if you're too uh ethnic um it's the same thing with gender right so when we ask um the models in the past and I don't even improved on this but when you ask the models in the past you know give me some characteristicness of this person and you make this person a traditionally female or woman name then the model you know gives you stereotypes and bias right and so and the same thing for ethnicity same thing for race you know um and religion in some cases as well and so you know these sorts of things are are uh the result of the training data for the models which you know was was likely popular uh data so data that's available on the internet and we know you know there's a digital divide there's just so many people that aren't on the internet um the internet uh in many ways is it um is still a luxury to to many um you know we've closed that um that gap in the US somewhat but um it there's still a lot of folks that aren't aren't there um and let alone a lot of folks consume use the internet to consume but when it when it comes down to contributing you know their perspective their ideas their you know um viewpoints there's not a you know there's not an equitable amount of information about everyone uh particularly cultures that that are on there and so these models have been essentially designed to be biased or you know yeah they they've been designed to be biased and so you see a lot of scrambling to correct that um which which is is is um important and it's doable that's the other great thing about the model I mean you think about last year in uh artificial intelligence and language models have been around I mean you probably can remember websites where you you know speak to a chat bot and you know it has a pre-selected number of answers and multiple choice questions and things like that. You know that's that's an artificial intelligence and that's a language model as well but if you see it's all pre-populated the questions and answers are pre-populated it's just kind of pulling from a like a menu spreadsheet yeah that yeah menu of answers where the new model is much more sophisticated it's in real time uh having an interaction yeah you know um it's just a lot more um powerful and it's moving a lot faster models though uh require a lot of energy that's the other concern right is that because of the amount of information that it's processing they require a lot of energy and so as you proliferate the use of these tools you you know you're gonna actually increase computing power dramatically the use of computing power and that's kind of like the area that a lot of folks don't talk about a lot but everyone that is developing is well aware that um we need to increase our ability to be able to efficiently you know use and leverage computer computing power and when I say efficiently without destroying the globe you know without burning too much energy and right right you know um overheating because they really do require yeah our next conversation can be about climate change in the environment because there's so much of it right right um yeah but that is a real concern with the computing power with AI uh servers and you know managing that so they're trying to do and something that you don't efficient yeah it's something that you don't really think about but it's again the concerns and the consequences and the things that we have to at least weigh out again this idea around opportunities outweighing the risks like what are the risks what do we understand them to be and then how do we you know how do we address those I want to I want to shift just what just slightly and we have talked about this a little bit.
SPEAKER_01:So you have shared your story uh around being a a a youth a youth aging out of care a former foster youth and you've talked about the importance uh and the impacts of centering families in decision making you've talked about co-design you've talked about you know making sure we're talking to the end user right so how do we you know I think this is a conversation we have a lot in our work uh how do we do that in a meaningful way so it's not just gathering feedback but it's actually co-design it's actually sharing power and then how can an organization like PCA America be a national leader uh in this space around centering families?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah I and I think the way um that you center families is that you uh make them a central part of the um system of the of the of the change mechanism um I'm really excited about this new organization that myself and about 50 other professionals are launching called lead um and it's a professional network for um people working in human services that have firsthand experience with systems with the systems that they're trying to impact and the whole idea is that there's an intrinsic motivation with individuals who have uh navigated these systems if they've committed themselves to improving those systems there's an intrinsic motivation and that intrinsic motivation is of significant value to uh systems change and to you know future systems because it's the sort of thing that that's what eat every uh good employer wants they want an employee that's motivated internally that's not motivated by the incentives that they're given but they're motivated by uh the uh opportunity to make a difference in the world and i i think that um um when when we look at some of the uh mega trends some of the uh paradigm shifts uh within the child welfare space and a rapid change I think it would it would be uh important to incorporate some of those professionals that have firsthand experience that have a commitment intrinsic motivation in that change process and they're gonna bring their families in their communities into into the um fold if by no other reason by the fact that they're connected to them that that's what they know and that's what they that's part of the experience they bring to the table is the experience with their community and with their families. I think that's one way to do it. I think the other way to do it is to center solutions in the place where the where the challenges are right um Camden and New Jersey have done this very well with when they rolled out that early systems of care. I know they have some challenges uh as of late but when they initially rolled out their systems of care they were getting a lot of responsiveness from communities because they placed uh access points in communities and they allowed the community to uh essentially own the experience the the the customer experience um of those places meaning that they didn't have to look like government buildings they could look like community centers and community places places where people can feel comfortable um and then they had services co-located in those places right um and and and I think that that's that's another way to do that is to just you know uh be committed to partnering right uh in a way where you're sharing actually sharing the value by sharing the value some of that value of the solution has to get left in the community with those individuals right because then then that's their sustenance as well that's that's how they sustain their part of the partnership is that some of that value has to be left uh in that community and so I think that those are two great ways to do it is to just bring on and support professionals with lived experience. So you know PCAA could certainly support and partner with an organization like Lead, right? Yeah that's developing and training professionals. For instance, one of the things that Leeds wants to do is be able to do workforce readiness right so if you all have requirements and you have you know workforce needs working with lead to understand what those needs are and then to develop some type of mechanisms for being able to make people more likely to be prepared for those opportunities. Not that it's a guarantee but they're more likely right here's what PCAA is about here's how a person with lived experience might intersect with PCAA right just that sort of education that would make it a lot easier for someone to go from say working at another nonprofit to working with them for PCAA.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah I love that and I I'm uh congrats on on lead I'm excited to uh to follow that and certainly very excited to see uh how we can partner with you all with lead uh as we think about centering families in our decision making and again making it part of our DNA our organizational DNA takeem one more question I want to ask if you don't mind before we before we wrap up so I I I saw on uh again just social media I saw we're friends on Facebook I saw that you're you're starting to do art again and you told the story you told a story uh about that on social media about your art and I I found it to I I found it to be very profound and and touching and and you said in the story you had realized uh it was the first time you didn't have a home. And so if you don't mind sharing a little bit about that and then would love to hear what your favorite art medium is and when when we'll be able to buy your artwork in the in the mainstream stores.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah um thanks for that question it's a great it's a great question. So yeah so it's true. So I aged out of care when I was 18 years old as I was um entering college I didn't know that there was the possibility that I could that I was basically entitled to support while I was in college um I didn't realize that the you know aging out was an option and you know it was really kind of miscommunicated to me. I thought that that was what what had to happen because I was going to college I was no longer in care. So I didn't get the option of getting that added support once I was in school and what that meant is that you know my dorm was my home right because I was no longer in a foster home I was aged out they were no longer receiving any type of benefits from me. I no longer had a place to live at you know at my former foster home which is where I you know that's where I went to college from you know and so um I had a portfolio of work that I had done since the time I initially went into care actually it was so it was the portfolio of the time period that I was in care. I started it at my first kinship placement with my art teacher Marcy Morris and I had built up this portfolio through all the way through uh the end of high school and it was very precious to me you know there was you it basically was the development of me as an artist because it's this my start early stuff and then some of my bigger more detailed more intricate pieces. And when I I stashed it I tried to stash it right because I really didn't have a place at this at this home it was it was somebody else home and they had a family and all that and so I tried to stash it and I was really I was self-conscious about it. So I didn't say to someone hey I'm gonna put this up because I kind of knew that you know they didn't it wasn't that type of situation right they they they uh likely were not going to be able to you know hold and preserve my my artwork and you know who knows maybe they could have maybe if I wasn't so subconscious that they might have nonetheless as I tried to hide it and then I come back and it was just gone. And you know it's like my worst nightmare I was just like oh no it's gone you know um and when I realized that it was gone it was a confirmation I guess I kind of already knew that that this is not your house that's why you need to hide hide it somewhere but yeah when I came back and it wasn't there and then I asked around and no one they they it was not even a thought you know what I mean they didn't know where it was they had no recollection of moving it and and and we were had a great relationship wasn't like I was like treated like a stepchild or anything it just was kind of a fact you know um and so yeah I did I realized I was like man you don't have a home you know and I had to just kind of come to come to grips with that you know and I decided I wasn't going to do art because art you know for a person that doesn't have a home art is just too much you know it's too much to manage you know because you've carried around it's gonna get all crumbled up and so um and so I gave it up yeah I I remember really making a decision around that because I was like all right I'm not gonna do any more any more art you know and one of the things I did say though is I was like I'm gonna do my art in a different way I'm gonna live it out you know that's one thing I did say to myself is like I'm just gonna be creative in the way that I live in the way I go about life. And I think I've kind of maintained that I do get a little serious sometimes but uh I think I kind of maintained that a little bit but yeah I came back to it recently and it's interesting because I went and seen a Salvador Dolly show it's an immersive experience. And as I was looking through Dolly's work immediately soon as the show started I had a rush of energy that put me back into my art world and actually the way that he went about his pieces and his design was I I related to it in many ways because he wasn't trying to be real in a sense he was trying to express how he was feeling and his emotions and I realized that that's you know the type of artist I was as well that I wasn't drawing for perfection I was drawing for expression and I was painting for expression. And so in cre in creatively you know being when you painting to express is there's a real strong creative component that you know uh doesn't have to be grounded in reality which is liberating from an art standpoint. But what I realized about this pain that brought me back to the artwork. And so I immediately conceived of two three pieces that were all focused on pain. And so that's the series that I'm uh two um pieces into right now and is this series that's focused on pain. And although it's focused on pain it's not a sad series you know because what I realized is a lot of my life has been shaped by pain. But you know I think that by embracing pain and understanding the roots of pain you uh inevitably or you have the potential to unlock a path to joy right because you understand what it is that bring you pain and you understand why you understand you know what it is about your humanity that makes this painful and then you know you can chart a path towards joy at least that's what I do. That's what I've done. I realize that though once I acknowledge that pain I realize okay this is why you play golf and why you have so much fun with your son and you know encourage imagination and still play with action figures, you know, and things like that because the seriousness of life the problems and the challenges have caused pain and some of those need to get dealt with and we'll deal with them but we'll preserve space for joy so as not to be consumed by pain.
SPEAKER_01:So I love that I love that take him I love that um well first off I love that you're that you've found your way back to art and I I so look forward to to watching that um when you're when you're ready to share that. I I think the you know just the profoundness of that story that you know people that haven't been in the system or been touched by the system just have no understanding right of like that's uh that's something that was really you know profound for you at in the moment. And that's not something that you know people who haven't been part of the system don't think about. Like I can keep my stuff at my folks' house and I did when I was in college and I didn't have to worry about that. And you know that's something that you just don't think about. And so I I really appreciated you sharing that with us and sharing that I love that you're back uh doing your artwork. And uh if you ever get a chance go to the Dali Museum in St. Petersburg. It's pretty powerful in St. Petersburg Florida so if you're a Dali fan you'll love that.
SPEAKER_03:Check it out.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah so so go check it out. So Takem I just want to say uh again thank you so much for being here. Thank you for sharing your story. Thank you for dedicating your life to working to ensure children and families have what they need to thrive. We need you we need lead we need all of the folks that you talked about who have that intrinsic motivation to keep us real and to also keep this movement alive. I appreciate you I appreciate our partnership And I look forward to all of the work that we get to do together as we both uh move move along in our space in this work. I also just want to give a big shout out and thank you to all of our partners in prevention. We believe at PCA America that prevention is possible and that everyone has a role to play in prevention. I encourage you to visit preventchildabuse.org to learn more about our theory of change, access any additional resources, or to make a donation to support children and families through Prevent Child Abuse America because we know that together we can prevent child abuse because childhood lasts a lifetime. So thank you again, Takeem. We look forward to seeing you uh again soon and uh have a great rest of your uh day.
SPEAKER_03:You're very welcome, Jennifer. It was a pleasure. Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for tuning in to this exclusive episode. The 2024 Cat Month series can be streamed on our Cat Month page, preventchildabuse.org, backslash Cat Month 2024, and wherever you listen to your podcasts. You can find more information at preventchildabuse.org and on our social media channels. Remember, prevention is possible, and together we can prevent child abuse, America, because childhood lasts a lifetime.